[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Aging Gayfully. We're about adventure, leisure, travel, being a citizen of the world, traveling to destinations and being a part of the global community as we age and prosper in body, mind and spirit.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Welcome to Aging Gayfully.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: I'm Josh and I think I'm Chris because you know Josh, I'm only very dutiful to my responsibilities and I know we had planned to record today, but I'm only up for like the last 15 minutes.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: I, I got into full podcasting mode soon as I got out of bed.
I had to go to the bathroom first because, you know, I am 68, going to take care of, very good care of a few things.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: I'm going to take care of a little podcast business right now and I'm going to let the people see it so they can know like, you know, how professional we are. Whatever it is that you're crinkling, paper you're crinkling right now is doing my head in and really?
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Yes, I'll just show you because.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: What is that?
[00:01:13] Speaker A: I don't know. I was on my desk because I didn't have a chance to clean my desk before I put the camera up and the mic, pulled the microphone over. It's like I'm trying to tidy up so I can pay attention to your wisdom this morning because you've got a topic you want to talk about.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: I do, but why, why, why did you, why have you only been up for 15 minutes? Usually you're rooting, tooting and raging.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Well, usually I'm, you know, it's like if we would have recorded yesterday, I would have been up at 5:30, which is kind of what I'm usually. But you know, the 68 year old Chris thought he was 25, bowling, you know, know, late, late into the early mornings, you know, three, four o' clock when hanging out at the bowling alley, said, oh, I, you know, I, I, you know, I got involved in doing some recordings last night and before I know it, it's 1:30 and it's like, wait a minute, what am I doing? And so it's like, okay, how come the alarm didn't go off this morning? Because I didn't set it. You know, you get out of that routine.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: So it's another one of those instances where your mind forgets how, how old you are and your mind is still 18 to 25. Right?
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it's that I could do that.
Well, I actually, I did do it, but it, the, the toll is a little bit more expensive the next day than what it was when I was 25.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I was talking to you a little bit earlier and it bears repeating because I wonder how many people can relate with this, what I'm about to say. I used to love to have a lion, especially on the weekends. I used to love to just be able to have the freedom to sleep until whenever I woke up. And when I was a kid, you know, in those wonderful rose colored, I would sleep until 11, 12, 1 on a Saturday.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: I dream of those days.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't do it anymore.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Can't do it anymore.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Not only can I not do it anymore, I can't like wrap my mind around the fact that I can't do it anymore. Every Saturday I lay in bed and it's probably around 4:35 o' clock, I wake up. What I should do is get up, go downstairs and start my day. But I just lay there for freaking hours trying to convince myself to go back to sleep. I just can't do it anymore.
And the amount of energy that I'm spending trying to be 18 year old me when I'm 54 year old me, that's wasted energy, my friend.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: I'm hearing you loud and clear.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: So how many of you out there, your brain hasn't really caught up with your body or your body's not talking to your brain or whatever the hell has to happen? How many of you can relate with this idea of feeling just slight different age in your head than maybe your physicality would, would let you believe?
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Well, I, I think the, the phrase is the mind is willing but the body is revolting or something like that. I think I, I might have mentioned this last week. Revolting is probably not, it's probably a different word. But I might have mentioned this last week. You know, I, I enjoy watching all these bowling reels on Facebook.
It's like, oh God, I could get out there and do that.
What am I, I gotta be effing nuts. I couldn't go out there, I certainly couldn't bowl competitively, but if I threw a bowling ball down the lane right now, it would be like my body would go on strike and say wrong kind of strike, right, Wrong kind of.
Good metaphor. You see, it helps when you're up to a couple of hours before you record. You were right on, you were right on frame.
There we go.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Well, I'll tell you, last, last week we were teaching our 8 year old how to ride a bike, right? So like this has been a month long thing, now he's learned how to do it and he basically taught himself. I didn't have to teach him anything. But as part of that, I got on a bike and I rode about two blocks. My God, you would have thought that I'd taken up ultra marathoning with how my legs treated me. The next day I rode a fucking bike two blocks. Right. And my legs were toast the next day. What is with that?
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Yep.
Well, I hear you.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: So that's the mind and the body, but let us very skillfully transition to talking about the spirit.
[00:05:52] Speaker A: Yeah, Josh, very, very good. You just kind of.
We need a drum roll.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Maybe hope. Maybe I'll insert one. Maybe I already inserted one.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: Or maybe some organ music. I don't, you know, I don't.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: So both you and I have backgrounds in spiritual vocations.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: Yes, but we've been very happy, very proud of the experience I've had. Yes.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: But I want to talk a little bit about that and where we came from and where we are now, because I think a lot of people, as they progress through their life and they, they're in a religion or even a pursuit of spirituality, and as we age, that pursuit and what that journey looks like often changes drastically. It's a thing I'd like to hear about from our audience, but first I want to hear about it from you. Can you talk a little bit about your roots or your beginnings in your spiritual religious vocation?
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Well, I've always been drawn to the helping profession.
And I think for a lot of kids, especially in the era that I grew up in the 60s and even before that going to Catholic school, you always, the guys always looked at what would it be like to be a priest, be on the altar.
I mean, there was a lot of attraction to that, especially when you're going to Catholic school.
It's just something that is also always asked about you, do you have a vocation?
And I was always attracted to the.
What's the right word?
I was always attracted to the sacramental life of a priest. You know, I went to the seminary. I, you know, I was a two time offender. I went twice. And I still, while I thoroughly appreciate that experience and certainly the education, you know, I love, I love studying theology and philosophy. It's just, you know, it's given me my core of my thought process for the rest of my life. But you find your spot in the seminary, whether or not you belong or not is a. The big word for me was always discerning, well, who could ever, who could ever be good enough to do something like this? That's kind of the mindset that that formation would tell you, but then it goes a little bit deeper. It's, you know, it's that root cause for yourself and finding out where do. What community do you fit in?
And that's the whole thing for me when I, you know, I talk about my experience as church is how comfortable do you feel in the community?
Because there's no such thing as a church of one. You can't have a church of just one person. It's built in and around a community.
And it comes back to.
At least for me, it came back to how comfortable do you feel in that community?
Do you. Do you feel like you fit in that community? And, you know, there's especially as I can just speak from the Catholic perspective. I grew up in the Midwest, very conservative, but not to the point to where we look at conservatism. We hear that word today. But it was a part of me, and there was. I always thought something was there. But you find out as you.
As you get into the system, you get into the religious system, that there's more to it than spirituality.
When you have a community, there's diversity in community.
At least you hope so if you're in a welcoming community.
And not all church communities are welcoming. They're not all welcoming of diversity. You know, they oftentimes miss the message of love thy neighbor as I. As you, as I have loved you.
I mean, there's a whole lot of phrases and verses and things that we can go. Go into, but I think it really comes down to how comfortable do you feel in that particular community, because that kind of tells you what your essence is. And I think that's. Over the years, that's how I've come to balance the difference between my perception of religion as it relates to spirituality. It took me a number of years to understand that was diversely different.
The one doesn't get the other.
Yep. But it's a kind of like a. It's like a dichotomy when you think about it, is that you have these. This community that's supposed to be supportive, yet in their. In their human frailty, sometimes they can't get beyond the written word as they understand it, versus the community that is standing right in front of them, supporting them.
I mean, I kind of getting real deep here, but, you know, for me, you know, I'm. I'm not churched any longer anymore. That doesn't take away from whatever prayer life there is or reflection, what, you know, whatever that connection to something higher or something, you know, that's still there. I look at instances in my life where I said, oh well that's the interactive of God or whatever you're in ever your image is of that, but it's internal. I try to leave a life of love, care and commitment. Am I perfect at it? No, there's no perfect human, but it grounds me spiritually, which connects me, I think, to the broader sense of what education and training I had for so many years.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah, we recognize the truth that as human beings we crave to be a part of something larger than ourselves. And you know, to me that goes back to our need for feeling of safety, you know, safety in numbers, safety and a connection to a larger group.
And that was certainly when I was young, a big attraction to me for church because I was raised by a single parent who wasn't particularly affirming or warm or compassionate or empathetic or any of the adjectives that you would hope from a parent. And so I found that in the group of people at a local church, you know, and boom, you know, I felt seen, I felt, I felt wanted, I felt loved, all of those things. But it was a very, very, very conservative church. And looking back at it now, it shows me how dangerous religion and large groups of people moving in a certain direction that maybe isn't correct can be. Because, you know, the feelings that of loyalty that I had towards that group because they accepted me, I mean that took me all the way into my thesis, you know, and I was, was going to, oh, I'm going to be a pastor and work in the ministry. And I did for a number of years until I realized again what you were talking about, like how comfortable am I being totally sold out to this group that to a segment of society they express what seems to be disgust and hate.
You know, how can I, how can I make that make sense in my mind? And at the end of the day I couldn't.
I couldn't, right? And so I have stories of I'm sitting in church, I'm in my 20s, my in laws are visiting the church, they are atheist. And the sermon that day happened to be on the evils of Islam, right? And really just invective filled, just not a pleasant sermon. And my two family members were just totally disgusted. Like what do you mean? This church is about grace and this bile that they are puking out against this other group of people. And I was like, yeah, you know, that was, that was, that was. I feel like as an adult the first time that I was truly ashamed and embarrassed of this group of People that until then I felt, oh, this is such a wonderful loving group of people because they took me in. Well, they took me in because I fit a certain demographic. I'm certain.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: So then my struggle was in recognizing what it was that you just talked about. The difference between spirituality and religion and how spirituality and our, our being drawn towards spirituality is again, a human craving that needs to be met.
It's just that then you have certain religions that take that craving and they use it for their own agenda. And that's, you know, again, dangerous. Very dangerous.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: It is, it's very dangerous. And that's how, that's how cults get their, get their start.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. So in your process of moving away from being church but still holding on to spirituality, like, what kind of practices do you, you have these days? What do you do to stay spiritually connected, however you understand it?
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Well, I think one of the things that has in one sense grounded me spiritualize is being a caregiver advocate. You know, as, as I was a caregiver, because there's a, there's a relation to caregiving. There is a relation caregiving and ministry. It's a service to others.
My.
Pretty much my entire life, well, except when I was born, has been in service to others, whether it's been in social work or. All my roles in social work were always an outreach to help others. And you know, in retrospect, when I think about my time at the seminary and how I gravitated, even before I got involved with, in the caregiving role, I always kind of gravitated towards senior care.
And I think you find your, you find your niche when you're paying attention. And here's an example. When I did an internship at a very large church and the youth minister was like so excited that he had an intern coming because the last intern he had was with him 24 7.
And while I helped out with the youth group, I never really took a lead because it wasn't an interest, it wasn't a ministerial interest of mine.
The parish nurse and the hospital visits and the nursing home. I mean, I gravitated right to that. And you know, he said something to me that this is 30 some odd years ago, but he said something to me that really resonates and it kind of talks about what you and I are talking about now. He said, you know, at first when I met you, I wasn't, you know, so excited because I, I sensed that there was, you were going to be the same as the other intern. We were going to do Things. And I, you know, and then I come to realize that you didn't really have the same passion for this that I did, so. Well, it's not so much passion. It's that we all find our.
We all find our own ministry. Yeah.
And, you know, and I say that when I use the word ministry. I know it has a religious connotation to it, but I think it has more of a spiritual connotation to it. You can every. We all have some form of ministry in us.
You know, parenting. There's a ministerial component to parenting. You know, being present to your kids or your. Your spouse or your.
I mean, there's a spiritual component to that, whether you coin it that way or not. When you're connected with another person, that's the kind of the essence of being human.
And again, you create that community, the ministerial side, at least for me.
What's the right word? Can't think of the right word. But trying to connect the ministerial to the caregiving. But it fulfilled that caregiving advocacy, fulfilled that ministerial role in me, because I recognized early on in my seminary experience that the role of a sacramental minister really wasn't for me, because I couldn't get up there and preach about something or have a sermon about something or a homily about something that I didn't believe in.
I couldn't get up there and talk about something.
And a lot of times you're required to say something that either comes down from the authority.
And I'm not talking the authority in the clouds. I'm talking about the authority that's in another, is not as high up in the clouds, but really has a lot of. A lot of things to say. I'm trying to be as diplomatic as.
[00:20:09] Speaker B: Yes, you're not saying they're in the clouds. You're saying more. They're in the smog. I got it. Keep going.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Right, right, right. So I like that. They're very good.
I love that analogy. So that's, you know, I recognized that I couldn't get up there and talk about something that I didn't believe in. And there's. At least in the. In the Catholic space, there's a. There's a term that says, you know, are you a Catholic? Are you a cafeteria Catholic? And I don't know.
We all have our own beliefs and experiences. And I still have friends that are.
Goodness, we're in 2025. They've been now ordained, probably approaching 40 years. And I have friends that left after a couple of years.
You have to find your own Peace with it.
And it's something everybody has to figure out on their own because it's different for everybody and even more so for a gay person.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Yep. Yep.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: Because religion is. Religion is thrown at people who are different or at least are different to the people who are throwing the mud.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Or.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: And that comes back again to community.
How comfortable are you in that community?
[00:21:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I have several gay friends who are very active in different churches, and I know several churches, you know, that are very affirming. We just visited Savannah, me and the family, and I took a picture of a church, and it had a sign, a very prominent sign out front saying how they welcomed all sorts of people. And of course, they give you the list of a lot of the marginalized people that usually you wouldn't think would be welcome in the church. And they said, you know, everyone is. Is welcome and loved here. And so I do appreciate that.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:09] Speaker B: You know, and, you know, the marginalized.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: I think there's something.
I think there's.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Yes, yes. There's something. Something in the words of the holy book about reaching out to those marginalized.
You know, so I'm listening to everything that you're saying, and it. It pretty much aligns to the. The track that I have taken, which is to take all of the good thoughts, all of the good words, all of the things that I think that are true, that religion just also happens to espouse. I take those things and I sink myselves into that. You know, they. What's the saying that. That a broken watch is. Is right at least twice during the.
You can have truth come from any sort. All sorts of different kind of messengers. And so anything that espouses the beauty of community, the usefulness of grace, you know, the utility of forgiveness, these are all of the things that I believe in. And so I use my time in the church as I look back and I say, okay, all of those things.
Those are the things that I'm taking with me. And that made the experience a learning experience as opposed to just being useless, which it wasn't. I learned a lot of good, important things there.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: Well, and I think that that's the other message that we want to take from this conversation, is we're always learning and evolving. And I think if we look back at ourselves at 25 and had this conversation, it would have been much different.
Yes. But the years of experience.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: I would have been afraid of this conversation at 25.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Well, you would have thought the lightning was going to strike you.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I get it. I Get it? You know, and that's, and I think that other thing about religion is the fear factor that is often put into people's minds by authority.
So man, I, I, you got me thinking of the seminary, all the different stories that, that have come up and you know, the, the people that you meet and, and I remember one session where there was six of us in a group discussion and the facilitator, she started talking about communication and we had just done a, a, I guess a survey of sorts. And this one fellow, you know, he looked, I just couldn't believe what he had said. He, he just said, well, you know, on this survey I wish it would have been anonymous so that I could really have said what I wanted to say.
And you know, I just kind of looked at him and said, and of course the facilitator was a, was a nun. I said, if you don't have the balls to say something and put your name behind it, then you don't have any balls.
I don't think he and I ever talked again after that. But what kind of a weasel would.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: Say that in a group setting?
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Right? Well, you know, I wish this was anonymous. You know, I, Please sit and spin.
No matter what your faith base is, know whatever church that you go to or, you know, the, the minister himself that's, you know, that's the leader of the church and that church usually takes on the, you know, no, I don't want to go there. That, that, you know, the, the minister needs to be the leader.
Pastor is the leader.
And often people take cues from what, how the leader reacts. And if you're a leader not wanting to talk openly no matter what your viewpoints might be, then you're not much of a leader.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yep.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: But it's a, you know, faith is a gift. It's not something that just, you turn the switch on. Religion is a choice.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: I like that. I like that.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: I've never heard of it. Something you have to work at on a daily basis.
You have to see the goodness. Where do you find the goodness in society that right now seems so fractured? And that's where faith comes in. Religion on the other side.
I don't know, I could drive up and down, I can drive up and down Jog Road here, which isn't too far from me.
And there's going to be probably 10 to 12 churches within a three or four mile radius.
And which one do you choose to go to?
You choose to go to the one that makes you feel welcomed, regardless of denomination, who makes you feel welcome.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Well, I want everyone to feel welcome to write in and let us know what you think about this topic.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: What you're.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it is a sensitive topic.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: Yep. But. But we want to hear it. How can people email us?
[00:27:57] Speaker A: They can get in contact with
[email protected] Yes, I
[email protected] Very good.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Well, we want to hear your stories. We want you to be a part of this community, and you are welcome and you are safe to do so.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: You're in a safe space.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: All right, Chris. Well, that will do it for this week. Any closing words of wisdom from the. The white whiskered man up on the mountain there in the clouds?
[00:28:27] Speaker A: That's. No, Moses is not visiting us today. But I just appreciate you, Josh. I feel we've created a little community here, and I feel a part of the. I feel a part of your family, as I hope you feel a part of mine.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Absolutely. That's what we're here for. Absolutely.
All right, you all, next week we're going to take a little pivot here. We're going to talk about music, music that we grew up with, music that we listened to as we were on our journey. So be looking forward to that.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: Ooh, there's the key word there for me. Journey.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: Really? As in the band?
[00:29:08] Speaker A: Journey as in the band. Okay, Favorite alltime band.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: All right, save it.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: Can we pay? Can we play some Steve Perry?
[00:29:15] Speaker B: We don't have the rights. I'll try to do my best.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's. We can dream.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: All right, folks, looking forward to next week.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: Sam.
